Sending patch changes to Korg Triton and M1 keyboards

[EdK]

Hello!

I use my Korg Triton Studio and a Korg M1 Synthesizers/Workstation in live performance. There are many times that I need to set a combi and prog patches on both keyboards for a specific song. It is difficult to accomplish this quickly. For the Triton, it requires I press Combi, then a bank, then a 3 digit number, then press Prog, then a bank, then another 3 digit number so I can swap back and forth between Combi and Prog mode during a song. Furthermore, I need to set my M1 the same way. I don't have quite as many buttons to push but it's still requires pushing Combi followed by a 2 digit number then Prog followed by a 2 digit number.

I'm looking for some sort of external device or PC software where I can simply 'pre-program' what patches I need for a particular song, select that song from a menu of some kind and when I do so, the control codes to set the patches in each mode for both keyboards are accomplished in one step and I'm ready to go nearly immediately.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to best accomplish this?

I play a lot of broadway style shows and the action on stage does not wait for me to change patches. This needs to be accomplished within 4 beats or less of non-stop music.

I was looking at the Korg nanoKey controller but I'm not sure if this would do what I want.

Thanks for any help.

[3650guy]

hhhmm an excellent challenge.

Question -
you need to use a program and combi so that you can move quickly between 2 sounds?

you may actually save a program as a combi so that you can switch combinations via up/down cursor. that way you can stay at combi 5 and switching to combi 4 or 6 would be just a cursor away.

to make it complicated, you can use the onboard sequencer of any synth to send out program changes to both keyboards.

[EdK]

Thanks for replying. Moving between two sounds is not the problem. I do that now by simply pushing on the combi or prog button.

What I need to do is set a total of four patches on two keyboards quickly.

Example: For a specific song: On keyboard 1, I need a Piano patch in Combi mode, and an Organ patch in Prog mode. On keyboard 2, I need a Brass patch in Combi mode and a String patch in Prog mode for a total of four patches.

This takes a considerable amount of time to setup.

I'm trying to find a way (either through software on a laptop or some sort of external midi controller device) that I can setup in advance with the appropriate Sysex messages to send to each keyboard with the push of one button or one menu item.

Right now it takes a total of 10 buttons to push on keyboard 1 and 6 buttons to push on keyboard 2 to do this. This takes way too much time even if I don't make any mistakes.

You suggested possibily using the sequencer in one of the keyboards for this. I also thought of doing that but it would only reduce the number of buttons I need to push and that still leaves me with having to exit sequencer mode so I can swap back and forth on either or both keboards between Combi and Prog modes while performing a specific song. When that song is done and I need to set four new patches for the next song, I would have to enter sequencer mode again, select the specific sequence I want with the appropriate patches, then exit sequencer mode again. Setting up a foot switch to go sequencially from one sequence to the next is also not the answer because I may not need to go to the next sequential sequence.

The idea of what I want to do comes from me playing organ in church. Church organs are designed with a series of buttons (usually ten) that I an preset to affect the entire instrument (up to four keboards) by simply pushing one button and save the setup into memory. I'm trying to accomplish something similar using two synthesizers and midi control codes from either a menu on a PC or an external keyboard like a Korg Nanopad.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks...Ed

[SysExJohn]

Hi EdK,

It certainly ought to be possible to send appropriate Bank select and program change messages which are embedded into a very short MIDI file. I suspect that the "organ" and "combi" patches are already assigned to different MIDI channels but the 2nd instrument may need to be assigned to two further MIDI channels. e.g. Triton to 1 and 2, and M1 to say 3 and 4. Then a set of 4 program select messages should do the setup in a fraction of a second.

I'll see if I can find the appropriate manuals for the M1 and Triton Studio then I can research the MIDI specification for each. I'm quite happy to create a few files for you to try out to see if it works. You can probably use a very simple MIDI file player to send the files as you require them.

Give me a day or so to find the Korg manuals. If you can point me directly to where I can download the pdfs that would help.

All the best,
SysExJohn.

[EdK]

Thanks John..

That's what I would think. I'm not very experienced with MIDI so I'll probably need a little more guidance...such as what kind of MIDI file player program and how to connect a laptop to the keyboards.

I have MIDI cables and somewhere in a box I have a real old Roland sound card that has a MIDI connector but I wouldn't want to lug around a desktop computer and my laptop doesn't have a MIDI port. Only USB, serial and parallel ports.

Here's a link to the Triton Parameter Guide manual which documents the MIDI implementation.

http://www.korg.com/uploads/Support/ST_ParameterGuide_E1_633667647280730000.pdf

And for the M1:

http://www.webcoast.com/drevil/korgm1manual/

The M1 is a real old keyboard (circa 1980's). Parts are real hard to find but fortunately it's a tank and a real workhorse. I've only had it repaired once and that was to replace the buttons which became brittle.

I was reading all the MIDI info in both manuals for quite sometime and I think I found the sysex messages that are needed to do this...but then again...I've never attempted anything like this before and am a bit lost.


Both keyboards have MIDI In/Out/Thru ports.

Thanks...Ed

[SysExJohn]

Hi Ed,

Found a couple of Korg links too and am busy downloading a few manuals. As you say, the M1 may need a SysEx command of some kind judging by what I've quickly read of the manual.

You can find most of the manuals as well as other stuff here:-
http://www.korguksupport.co.uk/page.cfm?pageid=552

As a first pass, with a laptop, you'll need a USB to MIDI interface of some kind, with the PC MIDI out plug going into either of the two Korg's MIDI in port. Then probably a MIDI to MIDI cable going from thru on one, to in on the other. Does that make sense? On the other hand it may need a 2 port MIDI / USB box so that the messages can be separated. I'll let you know!

You'll find some info you can browse through here:-
http://www.thomann.de/gb/midi_equipment.html
Once I've worked out, if I can, how to do it, then I can point you in the right direction with an interface.

I'll take a look through the manuals now.
SysExJohn.

[SysExJohn]

Hi Ed,

If you haven't already got it, try downloading the full manual for the M1 from the Korg UK support page here:
http://www.korguksupport.co.uk/page.cfm?pageid=359#Owners%20Manuals
There's much more info there.

SysExJohn.

[EdK]

Thanks John..

I have hardcopy manuals for both keyboards.

That's what I've been studying. I think I'm able to figure out the sysex messages I need. What I don't know how to do is what can be used to issue the commands so I can store the appropriate commands based on the patches I want to use for each song and make it easily accessible.

[SysExJohn]

Hi Ed,

After a quick look through both manuals it seems pretty clear that voice selection is accomplished in the same way that is done for most MIDI instruments. For the M1 by sending the industry standard MIDI message "program change" alone, as it doesn't have banks of sounds to select from, and with the Triton by issuing a "bank select MSB" followed by a "bank select LSB" then a "program change" message.

Each of these messages is just 3 bytes long and therefore can be transmitted in a fraction of a second. They can, fairly easily, be edited into a Standard MIDI File (SMF) with a ".mid" suffix using more or less any sequencer. A free one that comes to mind is Anvil Studio which should be enough to enter a few bank select and program change messages.

To play the setup messages to the 2 Korgs, something like the free vanBascoes karaoke player might be what you need. It allows you to create playlists of selected files, then play them as needed.

If you want to make detailed changes to each patch then it's possible you may have to revert to sending SysEx messages, but that's not what you initially asked for. And SysEx messages can take a while to load as they are often several sections each hundreds of bytes long.

The sending and receiving of SysEx messages can be accomplished by initially using a free utility known as MIDI-OX. It will allow you to set up commands that can ask the synth to dump parameters and will store the response as an "syx" file.

The main feature you will need to look up in the manuals is how to set up the two instruments to use different MIDI channels. So e.g. the M1 to use MIDI channels 1 and 2 and the Triton to use channels 3 and 4 for instance. Avoid channel 10 as it is usually used for percussion. Then I can start you off by creating a few files with your most used patch combinations.

Does that sound okay?
SysExJohn.

[EdK]

WOW!! I think you hit the nail right on the head.

That's exactly what I want to do. I believe I understand the portion you wrote about Sysex messages too. So what you're saying is, the Sysex messages are only used for 'tweaking' individual parameters in each patch such as filters, amplitutde, note on/off, etc. If that's correct, then no, I do not need to do that. All I'm looking for is to perform patch selection which you described as only requiring the standard "program change" midi message.

As you discovered, the Triton has many, many more patches to choose from than the M1 and therefore has 'banks' of patches whereas the M1 does not.

This info is definitely going to get me started in the right direction.

I'm going to study both manuals to see how the channels can be assigned.
I know the channels on the Triton can be selected individuall in each patch. I've never seen (or noticed) if I can do that on the M1 but I will definintely take a look. Both keyboards appear to have the same basic design and midi capability so I suspect the channels can be assigned on the M1 also. The M1 is an older keyboard....circa 1985 or so.

In other words, channel 1 would be used to transmit patch selection in Combi mode on the M1, channel 2 for patch selection in Prog mode on the M1, channel 3 for Combi mode on the Triton and channel 4 for Prog mode on the Triton. Is that correct?

And then the software.....like the karaoke player....would be the tool I would use to store those commands by song title and in turn makes it a one step operation. i.e. select the song from the playlist and voila, the commands are sent to both keyboards.

I can't thank you enough John. I'll get back to you after I've done my homework. This looks very promising.

Ed

[SysExJohn]

Hi Ed,

Take a look at "Multi Type Functions" in the M1 manual and "Combination P2: Edit-Trk Param" in the Triton manual. I think that tells you how to assign a MIDI channel to each voice of a combi or multi.

The Anvil Studio program should allow you to do the edits to a MIDI file to insert the Bank Select and Program Change messages. It's not a brilliant sequencer but good enough for basics. I use SONAR mostly these days.

van Bascoes Karaoke player should allow you to transmit the contents of the various MIDI files, which will hold the program changes, when needed to the two devices.

You'll need to buy a USB/MIDI interface to connect your laptop to one or other of the two Korgs.

SysExJohn.

[3650guy]

i think it has to be done with sys ex.

for one thing any program changes present on the active screen on the keyboard (either program or combination) will only be changed by the last sent program change number. so if you send a program change 38 unto a combination window you will then have to rapidly change to a program windows so that the next program change will also be displayed.

using sys ex will allow you to send a couple of short messages almost at the same time and also send separate program change messages to both the combination menu and program menu. now i am talking theory here and also we are not talking about "bulk" sys ex which are bigger files.

i used to do this with a roland soundcanvas in a similar way but which is a different case all together.

unfortunately you will have to deal with system exclusive messages which are in hexadecimal format so you may need to spend some time with the manual and hopefully there will be short tutorial somewhere.

also korg sometimes provides sound editor/librarian software for some of their keyboards which might be usefull since it may be possible that you can "extract" short sysex messages which will correspond to the program change messages you need.

this is indeed an interesting post that you have made. and hopefully a solution will be forthcoming.

although using a "librarian" might also be a possible solution.

[3650guy]

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail.html?CNTID=2624&CNTYP=PRODUCT&LGFL=Y

[img]http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/Images/KeyboardsDMI/Product/Main/MDF3.jpg

this is also a possible solution for sending midi data.
1. it is a discontinue product
2. only one midi out jack so that you might have to do some midi routing with 2 midi cables.
3. floppy drive and diskettes are not exactly reliable in the long run.[/img]

[SysExJohn]

Whilst program changes can be effected by using SysEx messages, the key here (I think) is to be able to connect the two devices together and to a laptop with a suitable MIDI file player. Then simple program change messages can be sent which are much easier to program.

It could be a laptop or a hardware MIDI file player. The versions of hardware players that are available today (apart from 2nd hand) tend to be fairly expensive as they usually have a sound module built into them. The other downside, in my opinion, is that their displays are often difficult to read in a live situation. Putting a play list into the correct "set" order is pretty straightforward before the gig. Then just triggering the MIDI file, that does the bank select and program changes needed for the next song is easy.

You're going to need a computer anyway to create the MIDI files with either program changes or SysEx messages in it. Personally I'd steer clear of SysEx messages if at all possible. Even though, as my pseudonym implies, I find this easy to do. (A long career in the data / tele / satellite communications industry removed all fear of hexadecimal many decades ago!)

A very simple low powered laptop running say Windows 98 is all that is required, nothing fancy. So something 2nd hand would be ideal. I'd look on eBay. I've found an application called Virtual Jukebox which would do as the file player.

All the best,
SysExJohn

[plepue]

I do something similar on a regular basis. I play in a casino 80s band with two Korgs. I have created a combi for each song with all the appropriate splits and patches on each keyboard. In order to make quick transitions live, I use my laptop.

You need to have a usb midi adapter or a keyboard with that ability. I have a Korg TR which has USB midi built in. If you dont, the cost about $20-$30 for a USB adapter. Once connected to your keyboards you need the right software. There are many choices but I am using a free program that is in Beta right now called Live Proffessor, availabel at ifoundasound.com. This software is mainly designed as a live player for vst plugins, however, it has a function it calls a cue list. I can create a cue list for all of my songs. Under each cue I set all of the appropriate midi send data, Program Change, Continuous Controls etc. Then, before each show I simply reorder the cue list into the set we are doing that night.

You can step through the cue list using a key on the laptopr OR it can respond to incoming midi messages as well. You can have a footpedal trigger the change or a button on your keyboard. It really is wide open possibilities. The only catch is that you need to order your cue list before the show.

Hope that helps. It has been awesome for us.