Options paralysis on buying MIDI setup

[Wannabe Beethoven]

I need advice on what to get for my MIDI setup. The last time I did this was probably more than 10 years ago, and things have changed. My main priorities are (a) to get the best sounds I can and (b) not to buy some expensive stuff I then find I don't need.

I want nice sounds. I like mostly classical, but I want a full range of instruments because I also dabble in more popular forms.

My main question is, if I buy Ableton or Cubase or one of those, does it come with decent sounds or do I have to buy some kind of add-on to get decent sounds? If Ableton/Cubase/Other is all I need, which one has the best sounds? Or, if the sequencer really isn't important to the sound (I still use Digital Orchestrator Plus from Voyetra), then what is and where do I get it and how much do I have to pay?

What do these new sequencers have that my DOP doesn't?

Do I need one of those fancy MIDI/Audio interface devices, and, if so, what are the considerations when buying those? I input both from a MIDI keyboard and from a computer keyboard. I would also like to be able to record analog tracks alongside the MIDI.

BTW, I'm going to use a PC with Windows XP, 1G of RAM, a 5-yr old Intel processor and about 20G of spare hard drive space. Is this enough?

I have scoured the web for advice on these questions and haven't found any good explanations anywhere. Your input much appreciated.

Oliver

[synthman]

Your current PC could use a few upgrades. Windows XP is fine, but more memory and a fast hard drive would help.
If you want to do any digital audio processing / recording, a decent audio interface will also be necessary.
So before you go any further, you'll have to invest into upgrading your computer. Most of today's music software - especially software synths and samplers - need lots computing power, speed and disk space.

If you don't want to upgrade your PC hardware, then you can still use it for MIDI sequencing, but not for audio recording, at least not at very high quality.
In this case I would recommend buying a used Roland sound module, such as the good old Roland JV-1080.
It gives you lots of pretty useful sounds, and you can always add special expansion cards to it as needed, like Orchestral or Pop or others, there are 19 cards to choose from, and the JV-1080 can take 4 at a time.
You'll find several other sound modules (used or new) here: Samplers and Sound Modules.

If you choose to upgrade your PC, one or two outboard sound modules can still be very useful.
When you grow out Digital Orchestrator, consider Cakewalk Sonar as you main audio and MIDI recorder,
at least that's what I use. I also have Cubase, but it nakes me nervous, I find Sonar easier to use and it can do pretty much anything.
An upgraded PC will alllow the use of software synths and samplers.
Once you get familiar with the included sample instruments, you can go ahead and buy collections of sounds as you need them.
Whatever you do, keep Windows XP, it's still the best for music production (and everything else).
_________________

Info and support for synthesizer users

[SysExJohn]

Hi Wannabe Beethoven,

First a throwaway line, if ya wannabe beethoven then buy yourself a good piano and practise, practise, practise. Start with Bach's Well Tempered Clavier (he did) and when you've mastered those then move on to the inventions and sinfonias and when you have those you're on your way. About 10,000 hours of practise and you may get there! I kid you not!
10 years and three hours a day you'll make some progress!

Next, good advice from Synthman, he spells out some options.

If you don't want to spend too much upgrading your PC then a good external sound module is the latest box from Roland (or Edirol) called a SonicCell. There are other 2nd hand modules to be had on eBay too. As well as Synthman's recommendation, I have a Yamaha MU1000 and an MU128 with some internal expander synth cards (DX7, Prophet 5, VL wind synth) bought with care via eBay. Some good but not great results with those.

The SonicCell will connect to the PC via USB and fire MIDI and audio up and down the one cable. Your current PC should handle this fine although you will need to apply some tweaks to Windows to get it to perform well as a DAW. It comes AFAIK with a bundled copy of SONAR LE which should be fine to get started on. I personally like SONAR, but I do know others prefer Cubase. I use SONAR & Producer Edition which came with lots of soft synthesisers etc. I know a few gigging musicians who use the SonicCell live, and all like it a lot.

Take a look here. http://www.roland.com/products/en/SonicCell/

You actually don't say whether you want to gig with the setup, but I suspect from your question you want to set up a home studio.

The second, and the modern way of creating music is to use "virtual instruments". This way can require a lot of PC resource. A virtual instrument can (using a technology called VST) be a sample player, and obviously huge quality of samples can be stored on a PC hard drive. But "horses for courses" Take a look at the Garritan Personal Orchestra (google it). Very good quality. Then take a look at East West Quantum Leap Symphonic Orchestra. Outstanding sounds being used in movie making these days. But at a much greater cost. Take a look here http://www.soundsonline-europe.com/Quantum-Leap-Goliath-pr-EW-176.html and listen to some of the demos. Amazing!

You could probably use Garritan with your current PC with a total of 3gig memory. For the EWQLSO you may need a quad core 2.5GHz with more memory Wn XP x64, multiple hard disks. (My current setup!) You will also need a quality sound card. I use an E-MU 1616m sound card and audio interface box, but there are others of a very similar standard.

So it depends very much on budget and to some extent current knowledge. My guess is, at this stage, that the SonicCell might give you all you need at this point in terms of interfaces without a massive investment. SONAR LE will give you all you need to record both MIDI and audio and it's relatively easy to acquire a copy. In fact I think Cakewalk will let you download a copy.

But all of this is very personal and what suits me may not suit you.
So just a few thoughts.
Ask again if you want more.
SysExJohn.

[Wannabe Beethoven]

Thank you both for taking such trouble in your replies. A lot of very useful info here. So here's what (I think) I have learned:

1. The sounds can come from an external module or they can be virtual. The module is cheaper but the virtual sounds are better and require more PC resources.

2. The sequencing/mixing software (Cubase, Sonar, Ableton, Logic, Pro Tools, whatever) is irrelevant to the sound. It doesn't come with decent virtual sounds, those are extra. (So why does Pro Tools cost $500?)

3. An audio interface is essential if you want to incorporate live audio. But it is unnecessary just for MIDI.

4. A sound card is not the same thing as an audio interface. But even if you have a good sound module, you still need a good sound card. (What are the most important specs for sound cards? Will my old Yamaha SWG60 be good enough?). You can't get around buying a good sound card.

Are these conclusions basically correct?

As for my Wannabe Beethoven moniker, John -- this is one reason I like MIDI so much: you don't actually have to be able to play the piano very well, since you can just move notes around with a cursor! And compose pieces you couldn't possibly play on a piano (or oboe, or clarinet or kettle drums...). Unfortunately, even with hours of practice and a fervent desire I've never been able to be more than mediocre at the playing part. At my peak I could play Chopin's Grande Valse Brilliante reasonably well.

Thanks again for your help. This is a great forum.

BTW, if you like Roland, the stock (traded in Japan) is, according to the Financial Times, very cheap right now!

[SysExJohn]

[Wannabe Beethoven]

Thanks, John, that's useful.

You wrote:

The quality of the audio interface will affect how good the MIDI sounds are when converted to audio. But it's probably true to say that it doesn't need to be as good as if you are processing the sounds of a virtual instrument. Many people are quite happy with the output from a laptop's on board audio chip.

This is what I don't understand. I thought the quality of the output, in terms of pure sound, was determined by the sound source (sound module or software/virtual instrument)? Is this not so? What does the interface do to the sound?

From what you have said, I'm leaning towards buying a good audio interface first. Most of them seem to come with some kind of "lite" sequencing software, so it will give me a chance to try that out. That way, I'm not yet committed to either (a) upgrading to a better computer or (b) going with a sound module.

Any recommendations on particular interfaces? And, BTW, are the interfaces always compatible with all the popular sequencing software?

[SysExJohn]

[Wannabe Beethoven]

John - Thanks for your reply. You are so knowledgeable and clear!

You're right about the SW60 - I tried to put it in my machine and found it wouldn't fit in the slot, so I suppose that option is out. The SW1000 seems to be out of production, at least in the US, though you can get a used one for about $180.

There's a few interfaces that crop up periodically on Craigslist. The M-Audio Delta 1010 (retails for about $600) and the LT version thereof (about $180); and the Digidesign Mbox 2 (about $495). I'm not sure there's a huge difference between the 1010 and the 1010 LT.

I lean towards a PCI on the theory that if it's on the motherboard it's probably faster than USB or even Firewire. It doesn't need to be portable. I suspect that if I am mostly interested in MIDI (with occasional voice or guitar analogue mixing in) some of these interfaces have more features than I really need. From what you say, it sounds like a good ADAC is the most important thing for me. Presumably, also, a MIDI I/O is essential.

It sounds like I shouldn't spend a lot on the sequencing software. All I really need is the ability to handle a fair number of tracks -- maybe 15 different instruments? Also to transpose keys, maybe, and manipulate notes easily (it's hard to do Chopin-like flourishes and rubato on DOP!).

As far as budget goes, I'd like to spend as much as it takes to get a sound that you can't immediately tell is not a real orchestra. Sort of SW60 plus a bit. Is it unrealistic to expect that for, say, $1000?

Thanks again for all your help, you've been very generous.

Oliver

[SysExJohn]

Hi Oliver,

[Wannabe Beethoven]

If that's what you can do with 10-year old equipment, then count me in! It sounds great. The piano is literally indistinguishable (to my ear, anyway) and the orchestral parts pretty much indistinguishable from the real thing. Did you play the keyboard yourself to get those notes in? If so, I'm impressed.

Do you have any other recommendations aside from the SW1000? I've been looking and you don't see many of them about.

regards

O

[SysExJohn]

Sorry about the delay in responding, other things, you know!

As far as I'm aware the SW1000 was one of a kind! The equivalent external module was the MU100 sometimes with a suffix letter which indicated the inclusion of another synth (PLG) card. The MU128 and MU1000 or 2000 were successive enhancements of the MU100. Adding more sounds and e.g. greater polyphony.

Roland had some good external modules too, I have an SC8850 module. The only thing was that Roland did much less to publish their GS standards than Yamaha did to publish their XG ones, and so it's more difficult, I find, to get to grips with the more extended facilities of them and I find that to be true too of their SonicCell.

The issue with external modules, in the main, is that you still have to find a way for getting the sounds back into the PC if you want to record them.

But we didn't discuss that. Do you just want to be able to play the MIDI files or to be able to record the audio too?

Nobody seems to be creating a sequencer package that includes all the commands for their sound modules/cards the way that Yamaha did with their XGworks. So editing becomes hard work.

You might want to take a look at a free utility called Synthfont. It allows you to use a sample set originally designed for a Creative Labs card called a sound font. There are many of these fonts on the web most of them free.

SysExJohn.
_________________
Kein Leben ohne Bach.

[Wannabe Beethoven]

Thanks for the info, John.

Tomorrow I'm going to look at a setup a guy is selling on Craig's List. The computer is a quad core pentium (q6600) with 4Gigs of Ram and 800GB hard drive. With it there's a Tascam FW1884 firewire interface. He's throwing in Sonar 8 Producer and Reason 4. What do you think? The Tascam is much more than I need, but will the Sonar virtual instruments give me what I want in terms of sound? The price looks pretty good (actually amazingly good).

Oliver

[SysExJohn]

[Wannabe Beethoven]

Good point on the loopback. I asked the guy if you could record the output and he said "Of course", so I hope it's not an issue.

I'm thinking, though, that anything that is going to speakers can be recorded with third-party software, can't it? I mean, I have some freeware called MyMp3 which will record any sound that's going through my machine, albeit only on mp3.

My thought on the whole setup is that the computer plus the software (Sonar 8 Producer and Reason 4) would probably cost me more than what he's asking if I bought it new, so I'm really getting the Tascam for nothing. I'm going to take some MIDI files over there and have him play them, should give me an idea of how good the orchestral virtual instruments are I hope? I know you mentioned Garritan before - how much does that go for?

The only weird thing, apparently, about the Tascam is that you have to turn it on 20 minutes before you plan to work. He says it's a well documented issue and is sending me links to check it out.

And it's XP32 + SP3. Yeah, from what I've heard I wouldn't touch Vista. (My observation from many years is "Every 'upgrade' is a downgrade" -- I believe the Germans even have a word for it!)

I'm definitely going to need tutorials!

[SysExJohn]

Hi Oliver,

"Recording the output" is not the same as loopback.

Recording the output means taking the audio out and connecting it to say a DAT recorder or, as you say, an mp3 recorder, then recording. Loopback is when the digital audio created by e.g. a softsynth is sent to the audio hardware and immediately returned via a digital input stream so it can be laid down to a sequencer audio track.

You can then build up a series of audio tracks, one by one, of the various instruments and apply processing to them as a separate part of the creation process.

Personally, I wouldn't touch a piece of equipment that takes 20 minutes to sort itself out.

There's no doubt that Sonar 8 is a good DAW my only concern is that you may find it incredibly complicated compared to your old software. If you're mainly going to be doing MIDI files then you won't use 95% of the features in it.

If I was going for a PC interface I'd go for the E-MU 0404, here's a review: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/emu0404.htm

I use the E-MU 1212m internal PCI card which I upgraded with an external interface making it the 1616m. It's not the ultimate in audio interfaces (I'm not running a recording studio) but the quality is fantastic.

Here's another review: http://ixbtlabs.com/articles2/proaudio/emu-0404-usb.html .

The thing is, for everyday MIDI stuff, you don't need Firewire. MIDI travels at just 31,250 bps. So even USB 1 is fine to carry several sets of ports and an audio stream in and out as long as the USB drivers, that run in Windows, are good enough.

My advice would be be careful, don't jump at something too quickly without being certain that it will do what you want. I know people who are running MIDI files live on the simplest of machines, with Windows '98, and getting excellent results.

Best regards.
SysExJohn.
_________________
Kein Leben ohne Bach.